Today (Wednesday) the investigators are saying that the Metro operator did try to override the automated system. Face it, machines fail and humans make mistakes. The NTSB will do its usual methodical job of investigating what happened and why. It undoubtedly will determine that no single thing went wrong in DC, but that a series of events occurred and in a very precise sequence. That's the way transportation disasters occur. The system is designed so that one incident doesn't cause a disaster, but man isn't capable, I don't think, of anticipating all the things that can go wrong and their sequencing, so he doesn't design for that.
JM>"Any push for unmanned freight trains on the mainline in this country would really be asking for trouble of a catastrophic nature."
I suspect, but have no evidence beyond that, that the whole crew reduction thing is partly a historical leftover. Back in the days when diesels still ran with firemen, management got it it so fixed in their heads that smaller crews were better that it has become, for at least some people, an unchallenged assumption. Unions fighting for slots (as opposed to for jobs) helped make this a battleline, and there are still, to this day, some egos tied up in it. I'm always surprised how many people still think that wide scale featherbedding is a common transportation practice outside of the UAW.
Speaking as one whose experience with actually operating trains is all from the outside looking in, I have to say that running something that powerful, often through the middle of nowhere, for long amounts of time isn't something that makes sense to do singlehanded. Comparisons with trucking aren't, in my opinion, valid. The stakes are much lower, and, even if there isn't anyone with you in the cab, the cars and trucks on the road with you, and the road itself, require enough interaction to keep the brain active. Those same factors make light rail and transit a different animal as well, although I wouldn't make too much of that after a major fatal collision.
Mr. Mancuso,
Yes, I'm in agreement with your insistent opinion, what hapened there could happen anywhere. And once again, it's not a matter of when hi-tech is coming to the railroads, but when?
Just earlier today Boxer and Rockerfella, are pushing for grant funding for pass/freight railroad and PTC implimintation. And what we as professional rails need to be doing is preparing ourselves and our younger less experienced rails for the obvious. Embrace the technologies and get a handle on what their limitations are instead of vocalizing "the sky is falling" mentallity that rail unions demonstrate without having facts and research to rally the troops and condemn everything (whether positive or negative) that comes down the pike only because it's different, and they (rails and unions) are indifferent to change.
With change comes progress, with progress come change.
The UTU has done a pretty good job in handling Remote Control Operation. They realized that this technological change was going to occur regardless, and they might as well do all they can to insure that their members shared in the productivity gains. The BLET tried every possible means to oppose, and were unsuccessful. So it's UTU members who are operating the RCO engines, and get the extra pay, while former yard Engineers are back in chain gang service.
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fireeveryoneinjacksonville BacktotheFuture I agree with James. In my years with the r.r., I have run across only a handful of the scheduled employees that either 1) have a true interest in management of what the company does without any prejudice, and 2) have the open-mindedness to be a manager. I've seen more that have absolutely nothing good to say about who they work for. If I hated my job that much I'd leave...oh but wait, where else in this country can you get paid six figures on a HS diploma? The Longshoreman and professional athletes are the only two that come to mind. There simply aren't enough that are qualified or even want to be managers from the rank and file, so how do you fill the gap? Hire outside your industry, hire college grads, military vets, etc. I've also worked in locations where manager's from the ranks are lazy and worthless, aren't willing to hold their fromer colleagues accountable for things, and are conspicuously absent when it's time to step up to the plate and do the job. This was in a location that didn't exactly have a great population to draw employees from. I also worked with some former rank and file folks there and one is a best friend to this day. But again, he met the criteria of 1) and 2) above. It's easy to forget just how many hours a railroader works to earn that kind of money - regardless of education. What about the tremendous sacrifice in loss of time with the family, inability to be with your kids as they grow, the toll on our physical and mental health working so many hours and being held away from home for so long? At least truckers have air ride seats but take showers at truck stops - yuck. I stick around because I love what I do and provides for my family who I love, I detest SOME of the people I work for. Why should only education decide a persons income? A college degree is about as good as toilet paper trying to learn to run a train through the seat of your pants. Besides, who else would be dumb enough to work in these horrible conditions and shitty treatment for what really isn't enough to compensate for the loss in quality of life and short if any retirement. Alfred Perelman proved railroad experience isn't necessary to be a good manager when you hire the RIGHT person. However, a college degree proves little with respect to smarts, character or attitude. Most of the managers I've met who did not come from the ranks - down right SUCK. Those who hired off the street are far and few between if they last long enough to live with the shame of being so corrupt and unethical to keep their jobs. I'd say it's these non railroaders are the reason why there's such a problem with culture and making safe decisions. They don't know any better and everyone is afraid of being fired for insubordination for telling them otherwise.
BacktotheFuture I agree with James. In my years with the r.r., I have run across only a handful of the scheduled employees that either 1) have a true interest in management of what the company does without any prejudice, and 2) have the open-mindedness to be a manager. I've seen more that have absolutely nothing good to say about who they work for. If I hated my job that much I'd leave...oh but wait, where else in this country can you get paid six figures on a HS diploma? The Longshoreman and professional athletes are the only two that come to mind. There simply aren't enough that are qualified or even want to be managers from the rank and file, so how do you fill the gap? Hire outside your industry, hire college grads, military vets, etc. I've also worked in locations where manager's from the ranks are lazy and worthless, aren't willing to hold their fromer colleagues accountable for things, and are conspicuously absent when it's time to step up to the plate and do the job. This was in a location that didn't exactly have a great population to draw employees from. I also worked with some former rank and file folks there and one is a best friend to this day. But again, he met the criteria of 1) and 2) above.
I agree with James.
In my years with the r.r., I have run across only a handful of the scheduled employees that either 1) have a true interest in management of what the company does without any prejudice, and 2) have the open-mindedness to be a manager.
I've seen more that have absolutely nothing good to say about who they work for. If I hated my job that much I'd leave...oh but wait, where else in this country can you get paid six figures on a HS diploma? The Longshoreman and professional athletes are the only two that come to mind.
There simply aren't enough that are qualified or even want to be managers from the rank and file, so how do you fill the gap? Hire outside your industry, hire college grads, military vets, etc.
I've also worked in locations where manager's from the ranks are lazy and worthless, aren't willing to hold their fromer colleagues accountable for things, and are conspicuously absent when it's time to step up to the plate and do the job. This was in a location that didn't exactly have a great population to draw employees from. I also worked with some former rank and file folks there and one is a best friend to this day. But again, he met the criteria of 1) and 2) above.
It's easy to forget just how many hours a railroader works to earn that kind of money - regardless of education. What about the tremendous sacrifice in loss of time with the family, inability to be with your kids as they grow, the toll on our physical and mental health working so many hours and being held away from home for so long? At least truckers have air ride seats but take showers at truck stops - yuck. I stick around because I love what I do and provides for my family who I love, I detest SOME of the people I work for. Why should only education decide a persons income? A college degree is about as good as toilet paper trying to learn to run a train through the seat of your pants. Besides, who else would be dumb enough to work in these horrible conditions and shitty treatment for what really isn't enough to compensate for the loss in quality of life and short if any retirement. Alfred Perelman proved railroad experience isn't necessary to be a good manager when you hire the RIGHT person. However, a college degree proves little with respect to smarts, character or attitude. Most of the managers I've met who did not come from the ranks - down right SUCK. Those who hired off the street are far and few between if they last long enough to live with the shame of being so corrupt and unethical to keep their jobs. I'd say it's these non railroaders are the reason why there's such a problem with culture and making safe decisions. They don't know any better and everyone is afraid of being fired for insubordination for telling them otherwise.
Hey Jacksonville,
How's it doin'! Couldn't help myself on your comments, it seems that your not happy workin' on the railroad. And as far as that goes noone drafted you into the rail service, you pursued the railroad lifestyle and culture of your own free will, and now you sound like everyother unionized rail. " the jobs takes me away from my family, I don't get paid enough for what I do, the railroad keeps me out on held away too long, I don't get to see my kids grow up, whine,whine,whine!!! This is the culture of a typical union railroad employee, then add the crap on how RC has not benefitted TEY employees, and how some managers force their way into your already over-burdened life.(In the case of a manager telling you how to do it, if it falls in the parameters of the rules than do it, if it doesn't the rule says stop the movement and conduct another job briefing until everyone is on the same page....right! ) You have options.
But if your just disgruntled that your job sucks, than maybe this is not the career move for you, perhaps its' time for you and those like-minded of you to move on, you certainly didn't come out of the womb knowing that this would be your one and only position in life, you chose it, now deal with it.
Personal note* I' d love to return to the road, and find a way to run point of origin to point of destination, and who cares how long away from home I'd be, just to get the job done, and get paid for it. That's my ultimate railroad dream.
FEIJ -
Yikes - "BLE Guy" would be a shorter tag for you - but who am I to talk - I'm BTF now.
- I didn't say education is the end all.
- If your job is as bad as you are saying it is 1) you signed up for it; 2) don't take it out on me; 3) find something else that is more enjoyable....
4) You are probably far enough along in your career that you and your family have adopted to your financial situtation and getting another job would severely impact the way you handled your finances up to now. I think this is that point in your life where you figure out that you're responsible for the decision you made long ago and hate that you're a slave to the $. You say you love what you do - but most of your other words don't come across as backing that statement up.
If you haven't totally dug yourself into a hole as a "problem" employee why not trying being a manager? Sounds like you have tons of experience. The item I enjoy about r.r-ing is that our companies are like a world unto themselves. Want to sell stuff? Work on the sales side (intermodal, boxcar, etc). Have farm experience, become a grain analyst/marketing person, like talking and helping people? Customer service. Finances? Finance/accounting. TYE - trainmaster, road foreman, road trainmaster, asst trainmaster. Safety your thing? Safety Department...and on and on and on.
They tell the college grads you'll change jobs "on average 4-6 times" or whatever it is now...I don't need to change jobs. Just departments.
My only opinion on college grad is that they are like military (a LITTLE bit not a lot)...it shows that you have the ability to sign up for something, work on it, put time and effort into it for yourself, and most importantly complete what you started. Follow through is one of the more important attributes you need.
Thanks for the calm response.
Michael J Fox in "Secret of my Success" was the first time I heard someone discuss the idea that "you can't get a job without skills" and "you can't get skills without the job." Either way my point is that the manager;s that do come off the street bring something to the table. Just like an employee from the rank and file they start off somewhere with no knowledge. The crews learn how to run the trains, the manager's learn how to run the business. Both cannot succeed without the other.
Sounds like the mergers may be causing some of your angst as well but I do not know. And overall throughout the Class I industry employees are flying out the door. Think this is more based on the fact that 30-40 years ago there were many more railroads and there were hundreds of thousands of employees. Likely flying out the door to collect the retirement benefit.
Too bad about the hiring managers local buddy buddy issue with your r.r...but if it did work out can't you join the mgt ranks and continue paying dues to hold your seniority? I know many that do this.
Jacksonville,
Just a note here. Fact: According to the FRA studies RCO has increased nor reduced the number of death or injuries since its inception. So it's not necessarily the big ogre railroads that don't care.
An interesting thread to a long retired locomotive engineer with a prior military career. The idea of an unmanned train reminded me of a very old joke from back in the days when records were on wax. Passengers embark on the plane, the door is closed, the speaker comes on "Good morning ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the first completely automated flight, there are no human pilots on this airplane, but do not be alarmed, absolutely nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong".
The NTSB continues to make progress in its investigation of the 6/22 collision of the two WMATA trains in Washington DC. The investigation is identifying possible sources of interference affecting the automatic train control (ATC) operation. These potential sources include Electromagnetic Interference (EMI), traction power harmonics and signal crosstalk, communication lines, and system upgrades and changes. Following the accident, WMATA began to review operations data and identified some problems at other circuits.
Alot of stuff isnt getting reported in RCO cases.Only reason one was reported in Denver was the RCO job plowed a manned engine and he said it on the radio. Even though h was asked to "Be quiet about it" later on.
Oh well maybe when its all aid and done you guys can pay me to stay home. What with this PTC and all that.Highest unemployment in years and just what we want to hear. Lets get rid of these jobs. So where will people go? Burger King isnt hiring right now so I cant say would you like fries with that?Oh wait doesnt matter. I have been on the street since january. Waiting for this jobless reovery to take place.Still waiting.......